Five Man Reunion

[jonny]

I reckon all Genesis fans would love to see the Classic five-man line-up
play at the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame show, so I hope Tony, Phil and Mike
can persuade Peter and Steve to play the show.

If anyone has hopes of seeing them go out on tour can forget it, it's
never going to happen, so this one-off may be the last opportunity to
see them play, if only for a couple of numbers.

[Chuck]

Post by jonny
I reckon all Genesis fans would love to see the Classic five-man line-up
play at the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame show, so I hope Tony, Phil and Mike
can persuade Peter and Steve to play the show.
If anyone has hopes of seeing them go out on tour can forget it, it's
never going to happen, so this one-off may be the last opportunity to
see them play, if only for a couple of numbers.

I dont think Phil is physically up for playing drums, even a cheesy
"TV stage song". Aint gonna happen anyway. Besides they are not
getting in because of the 5 man era, but because of the 80's AOR era,
IMO. This is one rare case where I would agree with PG saying "No".
CB

[Umberto]

[...] Besides they are not
getting in because of the 5 man era, but because of the 80's AOR era,
IMO. This is one rare case where I would agree with PG saying "No".
CB

I disagree. If you read at the description for the band, as given in the
RRHF page (http://www.rockhall.com/induction2010/#Genesis) you can
notice that it is almost entirely concentrated on the early years.

[Chuck]

Post by Umberto

[...] Besides they are not
getting in because of the 5 man era, but because of the 80's AOR era,
IMO. This is one rare case where I would agree with PG saying "No".
CB

I disagree. If you read at the description for the band, as given in the
RRHF page (http://www.rockhall.com/induction2010/#Genesis) you can
notice that it is almost entirely concentrated on the early years.

1 paragraph and the author has probably been fired by now for focusing
on the 70's years ;-)
CB

[Godolphin&fellow]

Post by Chuck

Post by jonny
I reckon all Genesis fans would love to see the Classic five-man line-up
play at the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame show, so I hope Tony, Phil and Mike
can persuade Peter and Steve to play the show.
If anyone has hopes of seeing them go out on tour can forget it, it's
never going to happen, so this one-off may be the last opportunity to
see them play, if only for a couple of numbers.

I dont think Phil is physically up for playing drums, even a cheesy
"TV stage song". Aint gonna happen anyway. Besides they are not
getting in because of the 5 man era, but because of the 80's AOR era,
IMO. This is one rare case where I would agree with PG saying "No".
CB

Given that Peter was tempted to do a Lamb tour just 2 or 3 years ago I
could see him being amicable to a one-off type thing.

When a band is inducted are only certain main members included? As an
Ant fan, it would be a shame if he wasn't ultimately considered... in
the long view he wasn't a 'main member' perhaps, but his influence
continued well after he'd left. Seems to me it's a complex question
how much his style influenced Steve even in his absence, and how much
their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant. I've never
heard anything from 'Quiet World'... nothing at all from Steve pre-
Genesis.

[Mark Rae]

Post by Godolphin&fellow
When a band is inducted are only certain main members included?

It varies from group to group...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Seems to me it's a complex question how much his style influenced
Steve even in his absence

(Almost) none at all. After Ant left, it was very much in the balance
whether they would even carry on. However, after much navel gazing, Peter,
Tony and Mike decided that they would, but that they would essentially make
a fresh start. First task, then, was to get rid of John Mayhew and find a
much better drummer. And boy did they ever! After playing occasionally as a
foursome with Tony doing his best to make his Hohner pianet sound like an
electric guitar by putting it through a fuzz-box, it was clear that they
needed a proper lead guitarist. Mick Barnard just hadn't fitted in at all.
However, they definitely were not interested in a clone of Ant. Hence
Steve's ad saying he was looking for a band to help him "strive beyond
stagnant forms" (sic) which Peter found so attractive.

Once Steve joined in early 1971, it was heads down touring and writing for
Nursery Cryme. The only vestige of anything that Ant had written was the
opening of The Musical Box. This was originally an Ant piece called,
unsurprisingly, F# and parts of it can be heard on the "Jackson" tapes as
well as one of the Ant anthologies. Apart from The Knife, they hardly ever
played anything from Trespass live ever again, though they did obviously
play "Twilight Alehouse" and "Happy the Man". Even during their first gigs
abroad (in Belgium, because Trespass had been No 1 there), the only other
track they played from Trespass was Stagnation.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and how much their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant.

None at all. They used to go round to Steve's flat in London and spend the
evening listening to him playing "weird" chords and making strange noises on
his Les Paul - that's what they were really interested in. The fact that he
could also play 12-string just meant that he could help Mike (and Tony!) out
at the beginning of Musical Box...


Ant's contribution to the very early years was crucial and pivotal to the
extent that the others weren't certain that they could carry on without him.
But they tried, and found that they could very easily, and what they
achieved without Ant eclipsed by miles anything they ever achieved with him.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
I've never heard anything from 'Quiet World'... nothing at all from Steve
pre-Genesis.

Don't expect anything like Genesis or Voyage of the Acolyte...

[Godolphin&fellow]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
When a band is inducted are only certain main members included?

It varies from group to group...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Seems to me it's a complex question how much his style influenced
Steve even in his absence

(Almost) none at all. After Ant left, it was very much in the balance
whether they would even carry on. However, after much navel gazing, Peter,
Tony and Mike decided that they would, but that they would essentially make
a fresh start. First task, then, was to get rid of John Mayhew and find a
much better drummer. And boy did they ever! After playing occasionally as a
foursome with Tony doing his best to make his Hohner pianet sound like an
electric guitar by putting it through a fuzz-box, it was clear that they
needed a proper lead guitarist. Mick Barnard just hadn't fitted in at all.
However, they definitely were not interested in a clone of Ant. Hence
Steve's ad saying he was looking for a band to help him "strive beyond
stagnant forms" (sic) which Peter found so attractive.
Once Steve joined in early 1971, it was heads down touring and writing for
Nursery Cryme. The only vestige of anything that Ant had written was the
opening of The Musical Box. This was originally an Ant piece called,
unsurprisingly, F# and parts of it can be heard on the "Jackson" tapes as
well as one of the Ant anthologies. Apart from The Knife, they hardly ever
played anything from Trespass live ever again, though they did obviously
play "Twilight Alehouse" and "Happy the Man". Even during their first gigs
abroad (in Belgium, because Trespass had been No 1 there), the only other
track they played from Trespass was Stagnation.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and how much their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant.

None at all.

I think Ant's style/s must have influenced them, even if it was
largely subconscious....They surely didn't go in an opposite,
'negative' direction choosing Steve.
You don't hear similarites between the softer Trespass passages and
sections on the next 2 or 3 albums, or for that matter, between
certain acoustic based songs Ant released post-Genesis and the first
albums Steve released?
Obviously Ant's influence on Steve could only be indirect and, all in
all, pretty negligible. But then... Mike carried forward with
approaches he and Ant had been working on.... I can't REALLY say
Steve's songs such as Hands of the Priestess and the Hermit would NOT
have been written without his being influenced by being in Genesis,
but I have serious doubts.
The fact that both were interested in acoustic guitar as a solo
instrument, and steered clear of blues based stylings, (significant
_lapses_ - that's the right word I think - in recent years on Steve's
part excepted!)... The kind of 'space' created and the use of feminine
voice in Heirophant and God if I Saw Her Now show definite affinities
for a style fairly uncommon then rock/pop circles...

The heavier passages of songs like Magdalen, Nightmare or Wise After
the Event aren't, to me, all that different than those in Hackett's
The Hermit or Icarus Ascending for example. ... Ant's Salmon's Leap is
another example that comes to mind.

Post by Mark Rae
They used to go round to Steve's flat in London and spend the
evening listening to him playing "weird" chords and making strange noises on
his Les Paul - that's what they were really interested in. The fact that he
could also play 12-string just meant that he could help Mike (and Tony!) out
at the beginning of Musical Box...

As far as weird chords wasn't Ant, while still in Genesis, into
strange alternate tunings for the 12 string?
I didn't hear a single note of Genesis music till 1977, getting band
and solo albums over the next couple years I was struck by
similarities, (fewer in PGs' albums - and PC needless to say- than
any)... including Smallcreep's Day (that 'pace-y' electric guitar part
well into side 2 especially), they all seemed to be a part of a
'Genesis brand' of music. Certainly they all influenced one another.
But still hear similarities between Steve and Ant that are harder to
account for.

Post by Mark Rae
Ant's contribution to the very early years was crucial and pivotal to the
extent that the others weren't certain that they could carry on without him.
But they tried, and found that they could very easily, and what they
achieved without Ant eclipsed by miles anything they ever achieved with him.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
I've never heard anything from 'Quiet World'... nothing at all from Steve
pre-Genesis.

Don't expect anything like Genesis or Voyage of the Acolyte...

[Mark Rae]

Post by Godolphin&fellow

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and how much their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant.

None at all.

I think Ant's style/s must have influenced them, even if it was
largely subconscious....They surely didn't go in an opposite,
'negative' direction choosing Steve.

Opposite, not really. Negative, definitely not. But different, yes. They
knew that they wanted a proper lead guitarist, which Ant most certainly
wasn't (and still isn't) by any stretch of the imagination...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
You don't hear similarites between the softer Trespass passages and
sections on the next 2 or 3 albums, or for that matter, between
certain acoustic based songs Ant released post-Genesis and the first
albums Steve released?

Other than the instruments on which the pieces are played, not really...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Obviously Ant's influence on Steve could only be indirect and, all in
all, pretty negligible.

Indeed.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
But then... Mike carried forward with approaches he and Ant had
been working on....

Hardly at all. The only remnant of anything written by Ant which found its
way onto Nursery Cryme was the opening of Musical Box. It really was "tear
it down and start again".

Post by Godolphin&fellow
I can't REALLY say Steve's songs such as Hands of the Priestess and the
Hermit would NOT have been written without his being influenced by being
in Genesis, but I have serious doubts.

Ah, but that's a completely different topic! Steve certainly learned a great
deal from being in Genesis, but that had nothing to do with Ant...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The fact that both were interested in acoustic guitar as a solo
instrument,

That was not in the least unusual at the time.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and steered clear of blues based stylings

Lack of ability, particularly on Ant's part... And, as you correctly allude,
Steve is certainly no blues legend either... Plus, the other members of
Genesis were far more into Atlantic and Stax than blues, so it would have
been seriously incongruous...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The kind of 'space' created and the use of feminine voice in Heirophant
and God if I Saw Her Now show definite affinities for a style fairly
uncommon then rock/pop circles...

Fairly uncommon??? Melanie, Joni Mitchell, Fairport Convention, Renaissance
and loads of others...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
As far as weird chords wasn't Ant, while still in Genesis, into
strange alternate tunings for the 12 string?

Nope, it was Mike who did the detunings...

[Bodhranic]

This same issue regarding Ant and Steve is similar to Yes' guitar
players. As someone who knows both Steve Howe and Peter Banks, I was
pleased to hear Howe pay compliment to Peter Banks around 10 years
ago. Howe said (something like) the Yes guitar sound was already there
with Peter Banks and Peter helped create that very well, so it made it
very easy for Howe to slip in. Prior to joining Yes, the recordings
you can hear are from Howe's early psych years up to Bodast, and very
little of this sounds like what Howe did on his first album with Yes,
The Yes Album. So Banks did indeed have a lot to do with creating the
Yes guitar sound and was carried on by Howe at least for a couple
years.

Likewise, the similarities between Ant and Hackett are there, whether
it was subconscious or more or less. It's too much of a mere
coincidence, but that's not to suggest it was on purpose. As I pointed
out what Howe said of Banks, perhaps Hackett could say the same of
Ant. Maybe he wouldn't. But Ant did help create the original Genesis
guitar sound on Trespass, and that carried on with the next album or
two. In addition, as was said, the Genesis brand sound carried over on
solo albums by Hackett and Ant, even Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day. I
really doubt that Nursery Cryme would sound the way it did if Trespass
had not been made. Just my 2 cents : )

NC

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and how much their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant.

None at all.

I think Ant's style/s must have influenced them, even if it was
largely subconscious....They surely didn't go in an opposite,
'negative' direction choosing Steve.

Opposite, not really. Negative, definitely not. But different, yes. They
knew that they wanted a proper lead guitarist, which Ant most certainly
wasn't (and still isn't) by any stretch of the imagination...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
You don't hear similarites between the softer Trespass passages and
sections on the next 2 or 3 albums, or for that matter, between
certain acoustic based songs Ant released post-Genesis and the first
albums Steve released?

Other than the instruments on which the pieces are played, not really...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Obviously Ant's influence on Steve could only be indirect and, all in
all, pretty negligible.

Indeed.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
But then... Mike carried forward with approaches he and Ant had
been working on....

Hardly at all. The only remnant of anything written by Ant which found its
way onto Nursery Cryme was the opening of Musical Box. It really was "tear
it down and start again".

Post by Godolphin&fellow
I can't REALLY say Steve's songs such as Hands of the Priestess and the
Hermit would NOT have been written without his being influenced by being
in Genesis, but I have serious doubts.

Ah, but that's a completely different topic! Steve certainly learned a great
deal from being in Genesis, but that had nothing to do with Ant...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The fact that both were interested in acoustic guitar as a solo
instrument,

That was not in the least unusual at the time.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and steered clear of blues based stylings

Lack of ability, particularly on Ant's part... And, as you correctly allude,
Steve is certainly no blues legend either... Plus, the other members of
Genesis were far more into Atlantic and Stax than blues, so it would have
been seriously incongruous...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The kind of 'space' created and the use of feminine voice in Heirophant
and God if I Saw Her Now show definite affinities for a style fairly
uncommon then rock/pop circles...

Fairly uncommon??? Melanie, Joni Mitchell, Fairport Convention, Renaissance
and loads of others...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
As far as weird chords wasn't Ant, while still in Genesis, into
strange alternate tunings for the 12 string?

Nope, it was Mike who did the detunings...

[Mark Rae]

Post by Bodhranic
Likewise, the similarities between Ant and Hackett are there, whether
it was subconscious or more or less.

Other than they both play the same instrument, there are no similarities at
all...

Post by Bodhranic
perhaps Hackett could say the same of Ant. Maybe he wouldn't.

He's had plenty of opportunity! They've even worked together. Maybe the real
reason that Steve hasn't said that Ant influenced his playing in Genesis is
because he didn't...

Post by Bodhranic
But Ant did help create the original Genesis guitar sound on Trespass,

That's obviously true.

Post by Bodhranic
and that carried on with the next album or two.

Oh come on! Hackett's lead work on Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot bears no
resemblance whatsoever to Ant's "lead" work on Trespass...

Post by Bodhranic
I really doubt that Nursery Cryme would sound the way it did if Trespass
had not been made.

You wouldn't say that the continuity between Trespass and Nursery Cryme was
because three of the band members were the same on both albums...?

[Jeff Blanks]

Post by Mark Rae
Other than they both play the same instrument, there are no similarities at
all...

There are no similarities at all between Ant and, oh, *Phil Miller*. Or
Doc Watson. Or Wes Montgomery. Ant and Steve are rather closer than
that. They are, though, quite *distinct*; however, they both fit in
Genesis.

Post by Mark Rae
Hackett's lead work on Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot bears no
resemblance whatsoever to Ant's "lead" work on Trespass...

It's not just about lead work--it's the sense of the music, so to speak.
ISTR Rutherford mentioning that Ant's influence lasted for years after
he left, but I think he meant it in a very subtle way. I suspect he was
speaking of himself more than anyone else. And that's the key; Ant
seems to have been an influence not on Steve, but on *Mike*. Maybe even
on Tony and Peter; when they step out on their own, how much do they
sound like early Genesis at all?

Post by Mark Rae
You wouldn't say that the continuity between Trespass and Nursery Cryme was
because three of the band members were the same on both albums...?

*The Yes Album* and *90125* share three band members, too!

*NC* strikes me as "tear *some* of it down, but not all". An expansion,
even a slight deepening (I guess you could call it a *progression*, nyuk
nyuk nyuk), but not a wholesale re-invention.

[raven1]

On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:22:26 -0800 (PST), Bodhranic

Post by Bodhranic
This same issue regarding Ant and Steve is similar to Yes' guitar
players. As someone who knows both Steve Howe and Peter Banks, I was
pleased to hear Howe pay compliment to Peter Banks around 10 years
ago. Howe said (something like) the Yes guitar sound was already there
with Peter Banks and Peter helped create that very well, so it made it
very easy for Howe to slip in.

If he's referring to the fact that they both favored
hollow/semi-hollow body electrics, resulting in a similar tone on
occasion, I can see what he might mean, but their styles couldn't
possibly be more different.

Post by Bodhranic
Prior to joining Yes, the recordings
you can hear are from Howe's early psych years up to Bodast, and very
little of this sounds like what Howe did on his first album with Yes, The Yes Album.

Even less of what Howe did on that album sounds anything like what
Banks did. Their styles are even less alike than Tony Kaye's and Rick
Wakeman's styles were.

Post by Bodhranic
So Banks did indeed have a lot to do with creating the
Yes guitar sound and was carried on by Howe at least for a couple
years.

Again, other than that they both favored hollow/semi-hollow body
electrics, I don't see even the remotest resemblance in their sound or
style. No one is going to mistake Peter's solo on "I See You" for
Steve, or mistake "Starship Trooper" for Peter.

Post by Bodhranic
Likewise, the similarities between Ant and Hackett are there, whether
it was subconscious or more or less. It's too much of a mere
coincidence, but that's not to suggest it was on purpose. As I pointed
out what Howe said of Banks, perhaps Hackett could say the same of
Ant. Maybe he wouldn't. But Ant did help create the original Genesis
guitar sound on Trespass,

Mike had a lot more to do with that.

Post by Bodhranic
and that carried on with the next album or
two. In addition, as was said, the Genesis brand sound carried over on
solo albums by Hackett and Ant, even Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day. I
really doubt that Nursery Cryme would sound the way it did if Trespass
had not been made. Just my 2 cents : )

Nursery Cryme was as much a stylistic and sonic quantum leap over
Trespass (due to the two new virtuosi) as The Yes Album (add Howe) and
Fragile (add Wakeman) were over Time and a Word. This is not to knock
either Anthony Philips or Peter Banks, two musicians for whom I have
the utmost respect. Just my 2 cents as a guitarist.

[Mark Rae]

This is not to knock either Anthony Philips or Peter Banks, two musicians
for
whom I have the utmost respect.

Quite so. There is a tendency to over-eulogise Ant. There's no doubt that he
was hugely influential in getting the band started to the extent, as I
mentioned, that the others doubted whether they could or even should carry
on without him. But, apart from the intro to Musical Box, his contribution
and influence came to an abrupt halt in the summer of 1970. Of course they
all kept in touch, but that's because they were and still remain good
friends.

However, it is undeniable that Genesis replaced a mediocre drummer and a
slightly above average rhythm guitarist with two musical geniuses and never
looked back. As I mentioned, it really was "tear it down and start again".

There's also a tendency to over-eulogise Trespass. It's a good album, but
Nursery Cryme sounds like it was recorded by a different band with the same
singer.

To all intents and purposes, it was....

[Godolphin&fellow]

Post by raven1
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:22:26 -0800 (PST), Bodhranic

Post by Bodhranic
This same issue regarding Ant and Steve is similar to Yes' guitar
players. As someone who knows both Steve Howe and Peter Banks, I was
pleased to hear Howe pay compliment to Peter Banks around 10 years
ago. Howe said (something like) the Yes guitar sound was already there
with Peter Banks and Peter helped create that very well, so it made it
very easy for Howe to slip in.

If he's referring to the fact that they both favored
hollow/semi-hollow body electrics, resulting in a similar tone on
occasion, I can see what he might mean, but their styles couldn't
possibly be more different.

Post by Bodhranic
Prior to joining Yes, the recordings
you can hear are from Howe's early psych years up to Bodast, and very
little of this sounds like what Howe did on his first album with Yes, The Yes Album.

Even less of what Howe did on that album sounds anything like what
Banks did. Their styles are even less alike than Tony Kaye's and Rick
Wakeman's styles were.

Post by Bodhranic
So Banks did indeed have a lot to do with creating the
Yes guitar sound and was carried on by Howe at least for a couple
years.

Again, other than that they both favored hollow/semi-hollow body
electrics, I don't see even the remotest resemblance in their sound or
style. No one is going to mistake Peter's solo on "I See You" for
Steve, or mistake "Starship Trooper" for Peter.

Post by Bodhranic
Likewise, the similarities between Ant and Hackett are there, whether
it was subconscious or more or less. It's too much of a mere
coincidence, but that's not to suggest it was on purpose. As I pointed
out what Howe said of Banks, perhaps Hackett could say the same of
Ant. Maybe he wouldn't.  But Ant did help create the original Genesis
guitar sound on Trespass,

Mike had a lot more to do with that.

How do you know this? Much of The Geese & the Ghost was co-written,
w/ Mike playing 12 string too. From what I know... how they worked
together.... seems it would be hard to say which influenced the other
more. There's an old interview on youtube where Ant says he was the
one first attracted to the sound. I don't know myself. It's an
interesting question.

Post by raven1

Post by Bodhranic
and that carried on with the next album or
two. In addition, as was said, the Genesis brand sound carried over on
solo albums by Hackett and Ant, even Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day.  I
really doubt that Nursery Cryme would sound the way it did if Trespass
had not been made. Just my 2 cents : )

Nursery Cryme was as much a stylistic and sonic quantum leap over
Trespass (due to the two new virtuosi) as The Yes Album (add Howe) and
Fragile (add Wakeman) were over Time and a Word. This is not to knock
either Anthony Philips or Peter Banks, two musicians for whom I have
the utmost respect. Just my 2 cents as a guitarist.

Judging by what Hackett has said seems the advances shown on NC, in
the writing/arranging especially, had more to do with the work of the
older members than his influence.
Well after he left Genesis he once comment that in ways he never felt
a part of the band. Which I found quite odd.

[Mark Rae]

Post by Godolphin&fellow

Post by raven1
Nursery Cryme was as much a stylistic and sonic quantum leap over
Trespass (due to the two new virtuosi) as The Yes Album (add Howe) and
Fragile (add Wakeman) were over Time and a Word. This is not to knock
either Anthony Philips or Peter Banks, two musicians for whom I have
the utmost respect. Just my 2 cents as a guitarist.

Judging by what Hackett has said seems the advances shown on NC, in
the writing/arranging especially, had more to do with the work of the
older members than his influence.

That's true to an extent. Steve and Phil were the new boys, so were still
bedding in to a certain degree. They (mainly Steve) wrote "For Absent
Friends" but, other than that, didn't really contribute much to the core
song-writing process i.e. the words and melodies. However, what they brought
to the party was musical talent and playing ability in droves, certainly
many magnitudes greater than the two men they replaced - surely you wouldn't
argue with that!

Peter was so impressed with Phil's vocals that he sang backing vocals on
every song on Nursery Cryme, as well as lead on For Absent Friends. The
original ending of Fountain of Salmacis, as arranged my Mike and Tony, had
no guitar solo - Steve was simply going to play arpeggios. However, during
one of the recording sessions, he improvised a solo over the organ and
Mellotron and the others in the studio were almost awe-struck because it was
so good.

And that's what made Nursery Cryme sound so different from Trespass. And
their own Tron, of course...:-)

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Well after he left Genesis he once commented that in ways he never felt a
part of the band.

Perhaps he never was, at least, not a full member...

[raven1]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow

Post by raven1
Nursery Cryme was as much a stylistic and sonic quantum leap over
Trespass (due to the two new virtuosi) as The Yes Album (add Howe) and
Fragile (add Wakeman) were over Time and a Word. This is not to knock
either Anthony Philips or Peter Banks, two musicians for whom I have
the utmost respect. Just my 2 cents as a guitarist.

Judging by what Hackett has said seems the advances shown on NC, in
the writing/arranging especially, had more to do with the work of the
older members than his influence.

That's true to an extent. Steve and Phil were the new boys, so were still
bedding in to a certain degree. They (mainly Steve) wrote "For Absent
Friends" but, other than that, didn't really contribute much to the core
song-writing process i.e. the words and melodies. However, what they brought
to the party was musical talent and playing ability in droves, certainly
many magnitudes greater than the two men they replaced - surely you wouldn't
argue with that!

A person would have to be deaf to argue with that. Collins and Hackett
were a quantum leap as musicians over their predecessors.

Post by Mark Rae
Peter was so impressed with Phil's vocals that he sang backing vocals on
every song on Nursery Cryme, as well as lead on For Absent Friends. The
original ending of Fountain of Salmacis, as arranged my Mike and Tony, had
no guitar solo - Steve was simply going to play arpeggios. However, during
one of the recording sessions, he improvised a solo over the organ and
Mellotron and the others in the studio were almost awe-struck because it was
so good.
And that's what made Nursery Cryme sound so different from Trespass. And
their own Tron, of course...:-)

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Well after he left Genesis he once commented that in ways he never felt a
part of the band.

Perhaps he never was, at least, not a full member...

That's a fairly common complaint among successful bands. Steve Perry
has said that he never felt like he was really a part of Journey, even
though he was overwhelmingly responsible for their commercial success.

[Jeff Blanks]

Post by raven1
A person would have to be deaf to argue with that. Collins and Hackett
were a quantum leap as musicians over their predecessors.

Maybe at the time, but over the intervening time Ant seems to have quite
made up that ground. He's still not too much of a lead guitarist,
though, which makes the gap between him and Steve look wider than it is.
And I doubt Steve can play piano as well as Ant, FWTW. OTOH, Steve's a
better singer (as long as we're pulling other stuff into this) and has a
more expansive harmonic language.

[Godolphin&fellow]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and how much their choosing Steve was based on his similarity to Ant.

None at all.

I think Ant's style/s must have influenced them, even if it was
largely subconscious....They surely didn't go in an opposite,
'negative' direction choosing Steve.

Opposite, not really. Negative, definitely not. But different, yes. They
knew that they wanted a proper lead guitarist, which Ant most certainly
wasn't (and still isn't) by any stretch of the imagination...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
You don't hear similarites between the softer Trespass passages and
sections on the next 2 or 3 albums, or for that matter, between
certain acoustic based songs Ant released post-Genesis and the first
albums Steve released?

Other than the instruments on which the pieces are played, not really...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
Obviously Ant's influence on Steve could only be indirect and, all in
all, pretty negligible.

Indeed.

Post by Godolphin&fellow
But then... Mike carried forward with approaches he and Ant had
been working on....

Hardly at all. The only remnant of anything written by Ant which found its
way onto Nursery Cryme was the opening of Musical Box. It really was "tear
it down and start again".

Post by Godolphin&fellow
I can't REALLY say Steve's songs such as Hands of the Priestess and the
Hermit would NOT have been written without his being influenced by being
in Genesis, but I have serious doubts.

Ah, but that's a completely different topic! Steve certainly learned a great
deal from being in Genesis, but that had nothing to do with Ant...

I don't agree. As I was trying to imply before it seems Ant's
influence remained after he'd left. I've thought this because of, to
me at least (and Nic too), certain resemblances that come out on both
their solo albums.

That the others originally couldn't see a way forward absent Ant
speaks of a significant influence (I don't know but doubt it was the
force of his personality). They felt adrift in their little post-Ant
universe :-) it seems. Thus it wouldn't be too surprising that, after
trying out Mick Benard (?) for a while they chose a not-so-un-Ant-like
guitarist. A nervous Ant departed but a piece of his soul remained
with them.

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The fact that both were interested in acoustic guitar as a solo
instrument,

That was not in the least unusual at the time.

Classical leanings? I can't think of too many myself.

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
and steered clear of blues based stylings

Lack of ability, particularly on Ant's part... And, as you correctly allude,
Steve is certainly no blues legend either... Plus, the other members of
Genesis were far more into Atlantic and Stax than blues, so it would have
been seriously incongruous...

Post by Godolphin&fellow
The kind of 'space' created and the use of feminine voice in Heirophant
and God if I Saw Her Now show definite affinities for a style fairly
uncommon then rock/pop circles...

Fairly uncommon??? Melanie, Joni Mitchell, Fairport Convention, Renaissance
and loads of others...

Yeah, I thought of 2 of those (the British 2). But of course all these
were, or as bands had, female singers. The fact that both guitarists
sought out a comparable sound shows a similar preference... that
fragile, poignant feminine voice fits a general area of music I
associate with both.

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Godolphin&fellow
As far as weird chords wasn't Ant, while still in Genesis, into
strange alternate tunings for the 12 string?

Nope, it was Mike who did the detunings...

I didn't know that. Anyway... I can't say where the (to me)
similarities come from... more from Ant? Mike? the whole of them
together? I'll note again heavier passages in songs like Magdalen,
Nightmare, Wise After the Event... or Salmon's Leap. I agree that Ant
can't compare as a lead guitarist. I read a recent interview where he
said he'd let that side of his playing slide because he never really
much saw himself as a lead/electric player.

As far as the Hall of Fame induction, I certainly hope Ant 'makes the
cut' (however such things are decided). Had things been different and
Steve had left in 75 while PG remained for a couple more albums I'd
have serious doubts whether they'd choose to include either guitarist.

[Mark Rae]

Post by Godolphin&fellow
That the others originally couldn't see a way forward absent Ant
speaks of a significant influence

LOL! Yes it does, but you're starting to argue yourself into a corner now...

I've never denied that Ant had a MASSIVE influence on the band in their
formative years. But, when he left, that influence left with him. As stated
(ad nauseam by now), the others were unsure if they could carry on without
Ant i.e. without Ant's contribution to the band, influence over the
songwriting and arrangements etc. But they decided to try anyway and found,
maybe to their amazement - who knows? - that they WERE able to carry on
without Ant. And not just to carry on as before, but to achieve heights that
they could never have achieved had Ant remained.

However, you originally stated that Ant influenced Steve - I guess you're
one of those who seem to think that it would have been simply lovely if
Steve had gone round to Ant's house in Clapham so that the old master could
teach the young whippersnapper how to play guitar, or something...

This simply didn't happen. It wasn't necessary. There was nothing that Ant
could have taught Steve.

[Steve Turner]

Post by jonny
I reckon all Genesis fans would love to see the Classic five-man line-up
play at the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame show, so I hope Tony, Phil and Mike
can persuade Peter and Steve to play the show.
If anyone has hopes of seeing them go out on tour can forget it, it's
never going to happen, so this one-off may be the last opportunity to
see them play, if only for a couple of numbers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100211/ap_en_mu/us_people_peter_gabriel

[Covenant]

Thats just wrong...
--
Covenant
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands

Post by Steve Turner

Post by jonny
I reckon all Genesis fans would love to see the Classic five-man line-up
play at the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame show, so I hope Tony, Phil and Mike
can persuade Peter and Steve to play the show.
If anyone has hopes of seeing them go out on tour can forget it, it's
never going to happen, so this one-off may be the last opportunity to
see them play, if only for a couple of numbers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100211/ap_en_mu/us_people_peter_gabriel
--
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