Mike Rutherford on the new (1976) Genesis album

[Steven Sullivan]

I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=13379

[progea]

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.
http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=13379

God, I too struggle with that feeling sometimes. Living in the past in
times like these is not good but I can't help it. If I remember
correctly, the release date in the UK was Dec 3rd. I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

[Newsgroups]

Post by progea
I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

About everything. Always. Never forget it.

Jim

[Mark Rae]

Post by Newsgroups

Post by progea
I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

About everything. Always. Never forget it.

If you're referring to W&W, that was released in the UK on 27 December 1976
in the UK and on 7 Jan 1977 in the US and elsewhere:
http://www.genesis-music.com/discog/?v=a&a=4&id=9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_%26_Wuthering

[Anton]

Post by Mark Rae
If you're referring to W&W, that was released in the

UK on 27 December

Post by Mark Rae
1976 in the UK and on 7 Jan 1977 in the US and
http://www.genesis-music.com/discog/?v=a&a=4&id=9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_%26_Wuthering

Yep, was definitely 27-12-76, my birthday as it happens.

Anton

[progea]

Post by progea
I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

About everything.  Always.  Never forget it.
Jim

I won't, Jim, I won't. Merry Christmas!

[ian schneider]

played drums to w + w this morning - "til the stories go hazy, and
the ;egends come through, then do it again: some things never end" -
album completely holds its own.

happy Holidays, Hannukah, Christmas, Kwanza, pagan groups of every
kind and esp the atheists!

http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=9552

/Ian/

Post by progea

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.
http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=13379

God, I too struggle with that feeling sometimes. Living in the past in
times like these is not good but I can't help it. If I remember
correctly, the release date in the UK was Dec 3rd. I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

[ian schneider]

Post by progea

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.
http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=13379

God, I too struggle with that feeling sometimes. Living in the past in
times like these is not good but I can't help it. If I remember
correctly, the release date in the UK was Dec 3rd. I think I once read
Mark Rae mentioning it was actually Dec 13th. He knows better.

That tour was when Phil could first sing - the 11th Earl opening still
has never been matched. also the last year phil had hair - and looked
pretty cool cutting it short finally on this tour - better than that
1986 "lotta hair in the back, lotta glare up front look.

merry xmas!

/ian/

[ian schneider]

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.
http://www.rocksbackpages.com/article.html?ArticleID=13379
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy

GREAT TO SEE STEVE SULLIVAN!!!
Merry Christmas, man. Missed ya - Have you seen the Trick tour by
TMB? Anyone? I'm going to the 1/3/9 show in, not to brag: Atlantic
City!

/ian/

[Chuck]

Post by ian schneider
GREAT TO SEE STEVE SULLIVAN!!!
Merry Christmas, man. �Missed ya - Have you seen the Trick tour by
TMB? �Anyone? �I'm going to the 1/3/9 show in, not to brag: Atlantic
City!
/ian/

They are playing AC? I did not see that on their cite. I know they are
doing 2 nights in Philly (Keswick). I live in NJ but will still be in
Florida on 1/3. Please post a review. Hopefully they will swing back
in the summer. Thnx! I have a recording from Europs and it sounds
good. Denis does a much better PG, but his "Phil" is still good, IMO.
Such a great setlist........ "they had not yet released a bunch of
crap" as my brother says about the 'Trick' tour...... it cant help but
be worth seeing.
CB

[Paul Goodwin]

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.

--

Paul

[Tony Elka]

Post by Paul Goodwin
I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.

That was exactly when I was done with them too.

Tony

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Tony Elka
That was exactly when I was done with them too.
Tony

why are you here dude?

[Tony Elka]

In article

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Tony Elka
That was exactly when I was done with them too.
Tony

why are you here dude?

Define HERE. This thread has been cross-posted to multiple newsgroups,
including rec.music.progressive, I've never posted
individually/specifically to the alt.music.genesis newsgroup in my life.

That being said, I enjoy everything Genesis did from Trespass through
Wind and Wuthering, even a few tunes from before Trespass such as Am I
Very Wrong, In Hiding and Window, all 3 of those are on my iPod. But
I'll take solo Peter Gabriel over Genesis post Wind and Wuthering for
the same reasons I prefer solo Roger Waters over the final two Pink
Floyd albums.

Oh yeah, I also saw Phil Collins with Brand X at The Roxy in Southern
California back around 1978 or so, they were outstanding. A year later,
I saw Bruford at the same venue doing material from One of a Kind, so I
guess it's OK if I post here now and then.

Is that alright with you, dude?

Tony

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

"here" defined: in the cyberterritory of people who might actually
have more to say than, "My taste is so good I threw that band away at
that point" where band in question is one you [gave up on] when James
"Jimmy" Carter was the US President, no one had ever heard of the Bush
mob or Dick "Cock" Cheney The idea of an African-American president
was off the charts unrealistic - the mini-series made fom Alex haley's
ROOTS had just begun - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977.

I ask this respectfully: what are you listening to now?

Post by Tony Elka
In article

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Tony Elka
That was exactly when I was done with them too.
Tony

why are you here dude?

Define HERE.  This thread has been cross-posted to multiple newsgroups,
including rec.music.progressive, I've never posted
individually/specifically to the alt.music.genesis newsgroup in my life.
That being said, I enjoy everything Genesis did from Trespass through
Wind and Wuthering, even a few tunes from before Trespass such as Am I
Very Wrong, In Hiding and Window, all 3 of those are on my iPod.  But
I'll take solo Peter Gabriel over Genesis post Wind and Wuthering for
the same reasons I prefer solo Roger Waters over the final two Pink
Floyd albums.
Oh yeah, I also saw Phil Collins with Brand X at The Roxy in Southern
California back around 1978 or so, they were outstanding.  A year later,
I saw Bruford at the same venue doing material from One of a Kind, so I
guess it's OK if I post here now and then.
Is that alright with you, dude?
Tony

[Relayer]

Post by Paul Goodwin

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Personally, for me, it was "over" with Abacab

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Relayer

Post by Paul Goodwin

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Personally, for me, it was "over" with Abacab

for Genesis it STARTED with Abacab. Source: 3 Sides Live tour, DVD,
as spoken by Phil. He sai dthat is where they learned to play the
blues, which of course they never could, but at least Phil understood
much better the I-IV-V-I pattern and song patterns generally, which of
course made him a different drummer. As to why Phil didn't flip out
in the 80s and play in a carl palmer plays the music of Neil Pert
style: I don't care. So said, the fact that he did and you are a bit
of an obscure person (unless you are using an alias name) is funny to
me. not laugh out loud ha ha funny - just an irony

[Steven Sullivan]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Relayer

Post by Paul Goodwin

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Personally, for me, it was "over" with Abacab

for Genesis it STARTED with Abacab.

That's revisionist history.

[Godolphin&fellow]

Post by Relayer

Post by Paul Goodwin

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Personally, for me, it was "over" with Abacab

It was never over for me... Invisible Touch was the first Genesis
album I got from BMG music club, (where I have bought all my Genesis
since 1986 - to paraphrase, absurdly, Rickie Lee Jones), probably for
about 2 bucks. That meant waiting for a few months after its release,
but by then my level of enthusiasm was such that I didn't mind.
There's always been at least a song or 2 that makes the albums worth
while.

[Man]

Only song on IT that stirred anything in me was "Domino", and only because
it started to rock in the second part...

Post by Relayer

Post by Paul Goodwin

Post by Steven Sullivan
I'm feeling nostalgic today so this (from Rock's Backpages, originaly
from Melody Maker) hit the spot. Some of us here probably
remember when 'Wind & Wuthering' was the 'new' album.

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Personally, for me, it was "over" with Abacab

It was never over for me... Invisible Touch was the first Genesis
album I got from BMG music club, (where I have bought all my Genesis
since 1986 - to paraphrase, absurdly, Rickie Lee Jones), probably for
about 2 bucks. That meant waiting for a few months after its release,
but by then my level of enthusiasm was such that I didn't mind.
There's always been at least a song or 2 that makes the albums worth
while.

[poisoned rose]

Post by Godolphin&fellow
BMG music club, (where I have bought all my Genesis
since 1986 - to paraphrase, absurdly, Rickie Lee Jones

Could you explain this? Not familiar with whatever RLJ lyric....

[Chuck]

Post by Paul Goodwin
I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A Trick
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
Paul

And you missed absolutely nothing, IMO. If you want a good laugh and/
or cry, spin 'Abacab', circa 1981. Geesh!
CB

[Mark Rae]

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

[Tony Elka]

Post by Mark Rae

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

I did. And I still don't care for it. I saw that tour, with the
Phoenix Horns. The song Abacab was a long one, suitable for leaving
your seat to go take a leak. When I got back, it was still going on.

Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine. But
it stopped being prog. I'm happy for their success and all the money
they made in their later incarnations. Coca Cola makes lots of money
too, but that doesn't make it interesting.

Tony

[Mark Rae]

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

I did. And I still don't care for it. I saw that tour, with the
Phoenix Horns. The song Abacab was a long one, suitable for leaving
your seat to go take a leak. When I got back, it was still going on.

Strange for a (so-called) prog fan to have a problem with song length...

Post by Tony Elka
Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine. But
it stopped being prog.

That's certainly correct - is that why you daren't like it...?

[Chuck]

Post by Mark Rae

Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine. �But
it stopped being prog.

That's certainly correct - is that why you daren't like it...?

Likely. There are dozens of crap pop bands to choose from. I prefer
them not too be one that was once my favorite and brilliantly
innovative.
CB

[Mark Rae]

Post by Chuck

Post by Mark Rae

Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine. �But
it stopped being prog.

That's certainly correct - is that why you daren't like it...?

Likely. There are dozens of crap pop bands to choose from. I prefer
them not too be one that was once my favorite and brilliantly
innovative.

Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

[Chuck]

Post by Mark Rae
Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

I love mounds of non "prog" music. But Genesis' attempt at non-prog
stinks. Is there anything that they have ever done that is not good
IYO, or do you walk blindly in that if it is Genesis it has to be
good? If so, that is not an open mind at all, quite the atithesis
thereof.
CB

[Mark Rae]

Post by Mark Rae
Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

Is there anything that they have ever done that is not good IYO

I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated, and have no time at all
for We Can't Dance, especially "Fading Lights" which is "prog-by-numbers"
IMO. Not particularly keen on parts of Duke, though I consider The Duke
Suite to be their finest hour... Not much of a fan of Timetable, After the
Ordeal, Just A Job To Do, Anything She Does, Congo...

[Tony Elka]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Mark Rae
Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

Is there anything that they have ever done that is not good IYO

I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated, and have no time at all
for We Can't Dance, especially "Fading Lights" which is "prog-by-numbers"
IMO. Not particularly keen on parts of Duke, though I consider The Duke
Suite to be their finest hour... Not much of a fan of Timetable, After the
Ordeal, Just A Job To Do, Anything She Does, Congo...

Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway, both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

Duke Suite will never be their finest hour to me. Your mileage may vary.

Tony

[Mark Rae]

Post by Tony Elka
Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway

Er, yes that's correct...

Post by Tony Elka
both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

I didn't say they weren't...

[Tony Elka]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Tony Elka
Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway

Er, yes that's correct...

Post by Tony Elka
both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

I didn't say they weren't...

Yeah. But you seem to think Duke is somehow in that league.

Tony

[Steven Sullivan]

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Mark Rae
Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

Is there anything that they have ever done that is not good IYO

I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated, and have no time at all
for We Can't Dance, especially "Fading Lights" which is "prog-by-numbers"
IMO. Not particularly keen on parts of Duke, though I consider The Duke
Suite to be their finest hour... Not much of a fan of Timetable, After the
Ordeal, Just A Job To Do, Anything She Does, Congo...

Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway,

And After the Ordeal is from Selling England...I suspect that Mark knows all this....

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae
both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

Well, if you mean a masterpiece that can include a laughable outlier like
"Timetable", sure, I guess....

Post by Tony Elka
Duke Suite will never be their finest hour to me. Your mileage may vary.

It does. Duke Suite counts as one of their finest 10 minutes to me, and "Duke' as a whole
has grown in my estimation over the years; but I remain convinced thatafter Duke, they fell
into the abyss.

[Loz]

[tight beam, M1 rec Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:37:32 +0000 (UTC)]
xGCU Steven Sullivan <***@panix.com>
oGSV alt.music.yes
If I can just clarify here ...

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Tony Elka
Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway,

And After the Ordeal is from Selling England...I suspect that Mark knows all this....

Messrs Rutherford & Banks, and presumably Collins as well, all view
"After the Ordeal" as something as an embarrasment. Bearing in mind
that AtO is in fact a masterful piece, quintessentially Genesis, I
feel completely at ease in dismissing the aforementioned band members
and their taste in music, and furthermore, I blow a fart in their
general direction. This goes for the rest of you clowns, too.

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Tony Elka
both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

Well, if you mean a masterpiece that can include a laughable outlier like
"Timetable", sure, I guess....

Timetable is a lovely piece of music and not laughable in the
slightest. I can only conclude that someone is tickling Steven
whenever he listens to it. Get a grip, Steven.

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Tony Elka
Duke Suite will never be their finest hour to me. Your mileage may vary.

It does. Duke Suite counts as one of their finest 10 minutes to me, and "Duke' as a whole
has grown in my estimation over the years; but I remain convinced thatafter Duke, they fell
into the abyss.

Indeed, Duke has grown on me over the years, rising from utterly
execrable to approximately tolerable over the years. From memory, it
suffers the taint of Collins' pop/disco/motown asperations (some of
which can be traced back to Wind & Wuthering), but I've come to view
the "Duke Suite" as rather decent, latterly.
--
Loz {:-)>
Contributors are reminded that, for their safety and comfort,
Toys are to remain within the Pram at all times.

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Mark Rae
Fair enough... If it has to be "prog" (whatever that means!) before you're
allowed to like it, then you're never going to like it...LOL!

Is there anything that they have ever done that is not good IYO

I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated, and have no time at all
for We Can't Dance, especially "Fading Lights" which is "prog-by-numbers"
IMO. Not particularly keen on parts of Duke, though I consider The Duke
Suite to be their finest hour... Not much of a fan of Timetable, After the
Ordeal, Just A Job To Do, Anything She Does, Congo...

Timetable is from Foxtrot, Carpet Crawlers is from Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway,

And After the Ordeal is from Selling England...I suspect that Mark knows all this....

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae
both albums are masterpieces, essential to their genre.

Well, if you mean a masterpiece that can include a laughable outlier like
"Timetable", sure, I guess....

Post by Tony Elka
Duke Suite will never be their finest hour to me.  Your mileage may vary.

It does. Duke Suite counts as one of their finest 10 minutes to me, and "Duke' as a whole
has grown in my estimation over the years; but I remain convinced thatafter Duke, they fell
into the abyss.
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

So you're saying that Domino, Part One sucks?

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Mark Rae
I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated

couldn't agree more - not only one of their worst but also
harmonically challenged songs they ever recorded. Their ending the
Reunion tour with this was the poorest song choice I've heard in the 4
thousand concerts I've been to.

Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths
bit that could be called taking two measures from Supper's Ready: "The
fight's begun/We've been released/[unintelligable]/bang bang bang/bang
bang bang." In those two chords, innovative only in their flaunting
of classical incorrectness in a song full of otherwise ingenius
modulations and chord progressions. Those are the only two chords in
carpet, played in the same banal arpeggios, which are painful to me in
their violently amateur plodding, with a chorus that to me sounds
like: You built the song up for *this* the melody "you gotta get in to
get out, oh oh oh oh" x 32.

I like WWW - not terrible, but love Secret World Live by Pete, where
the songs STEAM, RED RAIN, COME TALK TO ME and most especially SECRET
WORLD are better than anything on WWW.

/ian/

[Nic]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Mark Rae
I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated

couldn't agree more - not only one of their worst but also
harmonically challenged songs they ever recorded.

I couldn't disagree more. Maybe hearing the song out of context and not in
sequence (The Lamb) doesn't do it as much justice, as was done on the last
tour, but it is a wonderful song and one of my favorites.

n

[Covenant]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Mark Rae
I really dislike Carpet Crawl - totally overrated

couldn't agree more - not only one of their worst but also
harmonically challenged songs they ever recorded. Their ending the
Reunion tour with this was the poorest song choice I've heard in the 4
thousand concerts I've been to.
Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths
bit that could be called taking two measures from Supper's Ready: "The
fight's begun/We've been released/[unintelligable]/bang bang bang/bang
bang bang."

"Killing foe for peace"


(I think!)

[Mark Rae]

Post by Covenant

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths

D major to E minor, actually...

Post by Covenant

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
bit that could be called taking two measures from Supper's Ready: "The
fight's begun/We've been released/[unintelligable]/bang bang bang/bang
bang bang."

"Killing foe for peace"
(I think!)

Correct. Luckily, my copy of Foxtrot includes the lyrics... ;-)

[Newsgroups]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths

D major to E minor, actually...

But it's the parallel fifths that get him. Apparently it's not music unless
it conforms to rules that died in 1750.

Shall we add to the confusion by suggesting that a score analysis might
demonstrate the E minor fulfilling the harmonic role of a G major? :-)

Jim

[Mark Rae]

Post by Newsgroups

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths

D major to E minor, actually...

But it's the parallel fifths that get him. Apparently it's not music
unless it conforms to rules that died in 1750.

Luckily he didn't spot the consecutive octaves... ;-)

Post by Newsgroups
Shall we add to the confusion by suggesting that a score analysis might
demonstrate the E minor fulfilling the harmonic role of a G major? :-)

Cue clip of James Finlayson going "D'oh!"...

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Harmonically, the song is based on a D major to C major parallel 5ths

D major to E minor, actually...

But it's the parallel fifths that get him.  Apparently it's not music
unless it conforms to rules that died in 1750.

Luckily he didn't spot the consecutive octaves... ;-)

Shall we add to the confusion by suggesting that a score analysis might
demonstrate the E minor fulfilling the harmonic role of a G major?  :-)

Cue clip of James Finlayson going "D'oh!"...

whichever - like man on the corner and misunderstanding, pathetic
parallel fifths, hardly inverted and with no improvisation but for
Phil's *slightly* different vocal nuance Every time.

[Chuck]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
whichever - like man on the corner and misunderstanding, pathetic
parallel fifths, hardly inverted and with no improvisation but for
Phil's *slightly* different vocal nuance Every time.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

'Misunderstanding' was the beginning of the end......... 'No Reply at
All' the final nail.
CB

[Tony Elka]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Mark Rae

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

I did. And I still don't care for it. I saw that tour, with the
Phoenix Horns. The song Abacab was a long one, suitable for leaving
your seat to go take a leak. When I got back, it was still going on.

Strange for a (so-called) prog fan to have a problem with song length...

I like plenty of long numbers, if they're musically interesting. Abacab
could give repetition a bad name. Same reason I don't like Born in the
U.S.A.

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Tony Elka
Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine. But
it stopped being prog.

That's certainly correct - is that why you daren't like it...?

Nope, I enjoy a wide variety of music. I just don't care for the
particular direction Genesis went.

Tony

[Mark Rae]

[Same reason] I don't like Born in the U.S.A.

I'm with you there!

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Mark Rae

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

I did.  And I still don't care for it.  I saw that tour, with the
Phoenix Horns.  The song Abacab was a long one, suitable for leaving
your seat to go take a leak.  When I got back, it was still going on.
Genesis morphed into something else over the years, which is fine.  But
it stopped being prog.

What is "prog"? Seriously - one sentence, what IS it?


 I'm happy for their success and all the money

they made in their later incarnations.  Coca Cola makes lots of money
too, but that doesn't make it interesting.
Tony

[Chuck]

Post by Mark Rae

If you want a good laugh and/or cry, spin 'Abacab'

Or, at the risk of suggesting an alternative approach, you could try
listening to it with an open mind...

Oh my mind is/was completely open. Its crap! I tried to like it oh so
hard, as it was released in my senior year of high school. I saw the
show a few times, but deep down I knew that the disc was a total
disappointment from what was once such a brilliant group of innovative
musicians. 'NRAA", Me and Sarah Jane', 'WhoDunnit', 'Another Record',
Keep it Dark'.......... its just replete with crap regardless of
whether ones mind is open or closed. All my opinion, but whom elses
can I offer.
CB
Was it A or was it B, or was it X or Z (profound stuff!)

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

I remember it well. For me it was a letdown from the imo brilliant 'A
Trick

Post by Paul Goodwin
of the Tale.' I dutifully bought the next one, 'And Then There Were Three',
which was hugely disappointing, and other than the live 'Seconds Out' I
never bought another Genesis album.
--
Paul

Because? Phil had a bad voice? The songs became harmonicaly
unchallenging for your ear? The songs were 3 minute pop things that
were more suitable to a Paul Carrack Band thing? Because Seconds Out
was their last album made without use of a click track?

As to the metronome click track thing, everyone went that way.
Gabriel has done since 1982 until the present play 95% of his show off
of a click. His albums are all drum looped, and short.

However, and I do not know you so I am speaking generally, I think
that many who went in the Bruford/Fripp direction have different
taste. Simply: the Fripp/Bruford sound is harmonic dissonance in the
extreme. The rhythm sections: Genesis bass=keep the bass simple, know
where the bottom is, Fripp Bruford/Gabriel=make the bass a melodic
instrument. Also, the drumming styles are different/ Genesis=classic
"rock" bass/snare/hihat/cymbals/toms, Fripp Bruford/Gabriel=bass/toms/
toms/toms/snare/cymbals/hihat. This one I can vouch fo after seeing
Bill play for 3 hours at about 10 yards away - but there was no stage
so I could see his feet totally. That Bruford show opened my eyes -
he had a trio of come kind going, a guitarist and bass, don't
remember, but what I do remember, besides the fact that Bill's hands
are about 20% bigger than mine. I shook his hand after the second
show and hit him up with some lame-but-true 'thanks for being so open
on your instructional DVDs' )- so lame, anyway, he had amazing control
of the hihat with his left leg, and while Chester has gone to a more
conventional double bass set up, Bill, at least at that time, had this
set that was literally all toms. For about a minute during each show
he'd play a basic pop-Genesis-rock1 (BASS) 2 (snare) 3 (bass) 4
(SNARE) as if to say: yeah, I can play that way too!

Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key. Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live? He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy. The
reason the bebop-if-they-wanted Darryl and Chester *stayed* with Phil
& Genesis is answered by Darryl in an interview I just heard: "I LIKED
THE SOUND OF TONY BANKS' CHORDS." I think of it as Liszt is to Fripp/
Bruford as Chopin is to Tony & Genesis.

I have taste that makes it such that I always know where my set of
Chopin's 24 Preludes and Fugues has harmoniy, especially at the time,
was RADICALLY wet, while Liszt to me sounds like a frustrated virtuoso
with a very dry ear for harmony. As to what a wet versus dry harmony
is, you can google it or if prompted I;ll explain it, but generally it
means that borrowed keys in Wet harmony go in the direction of
fourths, where a song in E major will be in D major for 16 measures
based on being a 4 of 4, meaning, the A major to D major. Dry harmony
seems to me to go backwards, and in fact Fripp's Low C tuning: CGDAEC
sounds much drier than the config looks, is in 5ths, and Liszt is more
likely to go 5 of 5 - modulate same E major to F# major because the 5
of E is B, 5/B=F#

[Tony Elka]

In article

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key. Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live? He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it. Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Tony

[Mark Rae]

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key. Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live? He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it. Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...

Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

Measuring the "quality" of music by how fast it is akin to the scene in
"Dead Poets' Society" where the schoolboys are taught how to measure the
quality of a poem mathematically...

[Steven Sullivan]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Tony Elka

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key. Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live? He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it. Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

I can top that. Ever hear Trevor Rabin play 'Yours Is No Disgrace"?

[Mark Rae]

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Mark Rae
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

I can top that. Ever hear Trevor Rabin play 'Yours Is No Disgrace"?

I did...

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key.  Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live?  He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it.  Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

I can top that. Ever hear Trevor Rabin play 'Yours Is No Disgrace"?
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy

Steve: your best comment to date! Rabin singing anything that was
pure Anderson was suitable for a kitsch barry manilow warmuo act.
There are very few who are like that of a Jon Anderson: playing the
'human angel' and ACTUALLY PULLING IT OFF. For example, singer Sara
McLachlan still can carry herself the same way - but she is the
exception that makes the rule IMO. (note: only album I ever bought
from the cover alone - sara Mclachlan self-titled debut.)

[Steven Sullivan]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key.  Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live?  He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it.  Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

I can top that. Ever hear Trevor Rabin play 'Yours Is No Disgrace"?
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy

Steve: your best comment to date! Rabin singing anything that was
pure Anderson was suitable for a kitsch barry manilow warmuo act.

er...are you perhaps confusing Trevor *RABIN* with Trevor *HORN*?

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Steven Sullivan

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key.  Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live?  He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it.  Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

I can top that. Ever hear Trevor Rabin play 'Yours Is No Disgrace"?
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy

Steve: your best comment to date!  Rabin singing anything that was
pure Anderson was suitable for a kitsch barry manilow warmuo act.

er...are you perhaps confusing Trevor *RABIN* with Trevor *HORN*?
--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life --  Leo Tolstoy

Yes - thanks!

[Ian Andrew Schneider]

Post by Mark Rae

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Remember though, Darryl and Chester came from a Zappa orchestra where
tryouts were cold readings of scores at odd time signatures in no
particular key.  Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live?  He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Easy perhaps, but Steve Hackett created it.  Darryl is skilled at
reproducing, but it's what Hackett initiated that we remember.

Absolutely correct. Darryl may be able to play 20 notes a second - Steve can
also do that, but has enough taste and sensitivity to know when not to...
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...
Measuring the "quality" of music by how fast it is akin to the scene in
"Dead Poets' Society" where the schoolboys are taught how to measure the
quality of a poem mathematically...

I think your calling a most highly subjective solo an "abomination"
does nothing for my understanding of the music. And I'm with ya on
the speed thing! I'll take Tony Banks 1000 times over Chick Corea,
the former being a competant professional and Corea being the Fripp or
John McLaughlin of the keys. Why? Personal taste. I hear no
humanity beyond that cold Dianetics based series of half-diminished
harmonic minor Phrygian scales, Persian arpeggios and root inverse
square Spanish scales and so on. I saw Chick in THE ENCHANTMENT tour
at the Keswick this year with co-writer Bela Fleck. Bela, on one
banjo, not changed one - he may have used a capo a time or two, 4
plain strings, had more in it for me in 30 seconds than Chick's whole
night. Bela Fleck in Genesis after Steve left? That woulda been most
interesting. I wonder: any of you people out there who play banjo who
play aling with Genesis records: How does it sound? The thing that
brought genesis down was not the drum machine, it wasn't Peter's
absence, it wasn't the simpler or even sarcastically simple songs.
No. It was never replacing Hackett. Pains me as it does to type
this: Milke, you do a mean knee-bend, I love your bass playing, but
your refusal to give up guitar duties stunted Genesis' growth. There
is a scene in the Genesis "WHEN IN ROME" DVD part 2 where Phil says,
"I just keep sayig to myself, "if we were just *that* [small amount]
much better!" I think - yeah - if you guys had had hired a guitarist
after Hackett's act of financial idiocy. I think the dude who plays
Steve in TMB makes more money than Hackett.
1976 dream: "Steve, man, pretty soon all "albums" will go from 22/12
minutes per side of vinyl to 74 minutes per side of lasers, and your
songs will all be heard. Your 'artistic integrity' would be suitable
if you were Prince Charles' personal muician. But you're not, and the
music industry has been ripping off the public for so many years that
when the Napster rebound happens, you'll be the man in need - if you
quit, you're out. On your own you'll have your integrity, where along
with a dollar bill buys you a donut - maybe a criossant. (the tea is
on you). Andy Summers, a mildly talented guitar player yet a supremely
talented Music Business Player, to musician that are more appealable
to the public. Just watch: he'll make millions from a fairly easy
2007-2008 Police reuinion tour. Pays the bills! Think about it
because once you quit you willl not be welcome back."
I have all Steve's albums, and as a solo artist, he is vastly better
than Darryl though, so I'm with ya there! Darryl's "Another Side Of
Genesis" is the seconds worst album rekated to any of the Genesis
personage, the first, by an ocean, being Phil's "They Had To have been
playing this at Guantanamo" Live & Loose in Paris. Not to try to
sound like you, that album is so vile I stopped listening after the
Oom-pa version of That's All in all its "swing" garishness. After
Phil's deafness, you can't blame him for anything - Both Sides,
Testify, Tarzan: leave Phil alone - having had his head on top of the
snare for so longgave him Beethoven disease, which I have. I have
been told it's "temporary" - but I have lost all enthusiasm for
creativity as I'm too busy figuring out of I'm going to need to use
sign language. So those of youwho've despised these posts all these
years: rejoice - I'm both deaf and my ears are clogged and every 20
minutes or so let out razor blade like pain.

[Jeff Blanks]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider

Post by Mark Rae
Darryl's massacring of Steve's Firth of Fifth solo is an abomination...

But they wouldn't want him to "do Steve". They'd want him to "do
Daryl". Doing Steve is for a tribute or cover band, not Genesis itself.
In a way, blaming Daryl for not feeling like Steve is like blaming Daryl
for being himself. *No one else* sounds like Steve Hackett--that's just
the fact of the matter.

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
The thing that
brought genesis down...was never replacing Hackett.

Ehhh. I really don't know why they couldn't have simply re-hired him if
either party had wanted it. I mean, Yes got back with Tony Kaye (to say
nothing of Rick Wakeman and Steve Howe).

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
I think the dude who plays
Steve in TMB makes more money than Hackett.

None of them are hurting. Steve makes a decent chunk of change from
royalties from the albums he was on (which have still been selling all
this time). And he wouldn't be making albums if they weren't selling
enough to pay the bills, I suppose.
None of them had any idea that Genesis would break out as a stadium act.
As for "integrity", if none of them had had any we wouldn't have the
'70s music that we love so much, now, would we? It's kind of a matter
of *when* and *how*. OTOH, I'm not sure you could really call what led
to the split a matter of "integrity". If Steve wants an equal share of
his music recorded, that's not integrity, that's politics.

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
I have all Steve's albums, and as a solo artist, he is vastly better
than Darryl though, so I'm with ya there!

And he does have all those Genesis fans to draw on as a fan base.

[Newsgroups]

Post by Ian Andrew Schneider
Have you ever [lowered] yourself and heard Darryl
play live? He can't play like Fripp, but he could do hackett with his
toes - as suitable as Steve was to Genesis (he steals the end of
Supper's Ready, not bad!) his parts were, well, kinda easy.

Couldn't agree less, really. And contrary to what you're probably thinking,
not because of my estimation of Daryl's overall skill. Daryl knows his
fretboard, no doubt. I'm not even going to say, like some, that Daryl lacks
musicality or sensitivity. What I maintain with no reservation is the
opinion that Daryl can't feel Hackett's muse at all. His "mangling" of
Firth is one thing (one really can't blame Daryl for that, seeing as the
rest of the band encourage him, apparently viewing the middle section as
nothing more than a "guitar solo" rather than a composition), but on this
recent tour, where he really did try to play much of the solo straight, he
sounded like nothing more than a man crammed into someone else's tailored
suit. I was really quite pleased that he tried to keep it within bounds,
giving it the old college try as it were, but it demonstrated to me that he
just doesn't feel music the way Hackett does. Again, this is no criticism
of Daryl. The blame rests squarely on the band that hired him.

As for whether or not you agree with me, I offer Ripples as illustration:
if you're one who believes there lies somewhere a smashing performance of
Ripples by Daryl, you probably don't appreciate Hackett's musicality,
whether or not you can hear it. If you, like me, find every recording of
Daryl playing Ripples as paint-by-numbers uninspired as I do, cringing at
the plodding, tuneless placement of each and every note precisely on the
beat with no appreciable variation in tone, expression, or note length, you
might find you agree with me.

Daryl can play, but he can't "do Steve" at all, with or without toes. A man
may play the notes Louis played, but that doesn't mean he can "do Louis." A
man can sing Frank's words, but that doesn't mean he can "do Frank." It's
not about "skill," however you may define that. It's about feeling. At
this point, I've heard precisely four people in the world besides Daryl
cover the Firth solo, including myself, and every one of us can "do Steve"
better than Daryl.

Ok, group, I'm backing out of Ian mode now. :-)

Jim